Racism, intersectionality, privilege, power, fragility and allyship

[Introduction]

This is a Research in Practice podcast, supporting evidence-informed practice with children and families, young people, and adults.  

In this podcast, Research in Practice director Dez Holmes and Wayne Reid, BASW (British Association of Social Work) England professional officer, social worker and anti-racism visionary, discuss the key issues highlighted by Wayne in a presentation on promoting anti-racism and social work. Linked to the presentation are the resources that are mentioned in this episode, and related Research in Practice resources are all available in the episode show notes.  

[Vulnerability] 

Dez: Thank you so much Wayne, that was really, really rich. I had to cut my camera at one point because I noticed that I was, sort of, nodding along and potentially distracting the viewer. Really, really excellent stuff and I'm grateful, in particular, because I know that you've had to synthesise a huge amount of work, and effort, and information into this really succinct presentation. So much stuff that resonated there. And as we were planning this session, as you know, we've got these various things we want to talk about from an organisational perspective. But really, what I was taking from your talk was much more personal than that, you know, I was positioning myself, recognising that I'm still working on the interface around awareness and allyship, and I'm sure, putting all sorts of feet wrong. And I find that taking your point that actually, growth is infinite, and I can identify occasions where I was, you know, working really hard on learning but hadn't quite made the growth bit. And some areas where I felt like, 'Well, I'm in the growth zone,' you know?  

Wayne: Yes.  

Dez: And what I really took from it was something that really resonated with me, as you were talking about the change that's needed, particularly for people like myself where I'm White, is the vulnerability that comes with it. If you're trying to be better, which, you know, is probably the only thing I can say about myself, trying to be better, certainly not nailed it yet, is how vulnerable you are within that. It's much less vulnerable to not give a damn and not worry about trying to be better, of course.  

Wayne: Oh, yes, for sure.  

Dez: And, kind of, recognising my own fragility and vulnerability, yet, as a white leader of a majority white organisation and, yes, some of your comments there around the challenge of it, I love the point about, 'Change what you do and then you'll change what you think.' We have lots of conversations at Research in Practice about behaviour first or culture and, actually, behaviour drives culture, as well as vice-versa. I think some of the stories, initially, when you were describing how social workers had told you, for example, that they had not had PPE [Personal Protective Equipment]. I found that, if I say shocking, that suggests I didn't think it was possible and, of course, we know it is possible.  

Wayne: Yes.  

Dez: But shocking that in a profession which is, more than most professions, about values and ethics, it's shocking that we're still here, I guess. And I say that, and I'm not a social worker by trade, you know, I defer to those who are but as a friend of social work, ooh, we should set up FOSW [Friends of Social Work] at some point, as a friend, and hopefully an ally, of social work, it's upsetting to know that even within social work, as I say, one of the more ethically minded professions we've still got so far, to go. Really appreciated some of your points there where you were engaging in intersectionality as well, the woman of colour infographic really resonated. We worked with some colleagues, Rashida Baig and her colleague at Camden, and also with Nimal Jude, and they produced these three very, very powerful films for us about their experience of micro-aggressions and, indeed, overt racism in the workplace. And the point about intersectionality, I think, is a really important one. You know, it is not only being a person who experiences racism but also being a person who experiences sexism, or who, indeed, can experience homophobia. And I think that, at its heart, starts to tackle one of the resistant arguments we sometimes come across basically.  

Wayne: Oh, yes, yes.  

Dez: 'Oh, we want to focus on racism but what about this?' It's like, 'Yes, what about this? They're all connected, pal. You don't have to choose.' 

Wayne: That's right, yes.  

[The role and power of language] 

Dez: You know, it's not a buffet, there's more room on your plate than you think, you can care about multiple things. One of the things we're learning as an organisation is how a desire to get things right and not do things wrong, or be part of the problem. My goodness, we get tongue-tied. I was smiling to myself, as you were using the term, 'People of colour,' because having agonised quite a lot internally about that, we've decided, we don't say, 'People of colour,' because colour is not your defining characteristic.  

Wayne: Oh, I see, yes.  

Dez: The knots I got myself in about whether or not we should be capitalising white the way we capitalise Black. I mean, you can really go down a rabbit hole with this.  

Wayne: You can, oh yes, yes. I remember thinking about that. I mean, there was a slide, actually, in the presentation, which I skipped just for brevity, which talked the BAME (Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic) conundrum, that's the name of the slide. And, like I say, I left it out just for brevity but my thinking about that is that, you know, there's obviously an important space and conversation to be had about language but, equally, I think we can end up going down a rabbit hole, like you say, and it prevents us from the actual doing part which, after all, is really important, if not more important. So, yes, I think it's people just recognising that, really, that they don't get too tongue-tied, you know, to have the thoughts and the consideration but with a view to taking some action and then refining that action.  

Dez: And I think recognising that in trying to be better and do better, you have to forgive yourself enough that you can crack on with the important work of being better, not try and create this absolutely perfect, polished position that could never be critiqued from any angle. And that requires leaning into your fragility and letting yourself be vulnerable, and, kind of, not panicking, actually, if that makes sense?  

Wayne: Yes. It's sitting with that discomfort, isn't it? That's what it is. And I think that can only be achieved when you stay true to yourself and other, you know, and that involves making mistakes, it involves that vulnerability. You know, it involves maybe sometimes being caught out, you might say the wrong thing. You might say, 'Person of colour,' to a person of colour, and they might say, 'Hey, hang on, don't call me that, call me BAME.' Do you know what I mean?  

Dez: Yes.  

Wayne: So, it's being confident enough within yourself to think, 'Well, my intention is there, I've got the right intentions,’ you know…  

Dez: And when it comes down to it, you know, recognising that good intentions are alright but don't count for much if the impact is negative, there's something about when you're in a privileged position and I am privileged because the grief I get is never about my skin colour, I wouldn't want you to think I don't get grief, you know I do. But it's not about skin colour.  

Wayne: Yes, that's it. From an intersectional point of view, like you're saying, yes.  

Dez: And so, then you have to ask yourself, you know, what's the worst that can happen? I might get called out, criticised, or worse still, offend someone, and I will apologise, I will make it better. As opposed to, 'I will say and do nothing so that I can never be criticised,' that, to me, feels like a far worse outcome.  

Wayne: I think so. I agree and I also think that, you know, that's one response, not apologising, I think thinking of the anti-Black racism infographic that I put up, sometimes that fragility can look like defensiveness. It can look like, kind of, I don't know, a white manager going particularly hard on a Black member of staff because they're made to feel guilty and they don't want to sit with that guilt. And it's easier for them to transfer that guilt in another way, by treating that person in a way where, you know, they're feeling, 'Well, I don't really have to get too wrapped up and involved in their stuff.' It can manifest itself, I suppose, in all sorts of different ways but I think the key idea that I want people to be able to come away with, I suppose, are those different types of white identity that exist and people mapping, or charting, where they think they are on that. And, like you say, just trying to do better.  

Dez: Yes. And taking a risk with that sometimes.  

Wayne: Yes.  

Dez: Really, really helpful and so much to say, really rich stuff in there. I was quite struck as well, as you can appreciate, I'm sure, BASW's position is not a million miles away from this, we do a lot of work to help the sector, so we produce… Research in Practice isn't a social work organisation, although we work with lots of social workers, and produce materials and workshops. And my team have got all sorts of things underway, whether it's around, kind of, workshops, and webinars, and podcasts, and tools, and knowledge briefings, and working with some fantastic colleagues around that. And even within that, you have all these dilemmas. My team might not love me sharing all our dirty laundry but I think it's part of the learning. So, you find yourself in the space of, 'Well, of course we want to help our members have access to good quality knowledge, and of course we want to make stuff, but of course we want to make sure that we're giving black and other minoritised people the platform for amplifying their views and expertise. But nor do we want to make them feel responsible for educating us.' So, again, you find yourself thinking, maybe even overthinking, about the sensitivity. Now, I've got friends and colleagues working in this space who really highlight, I think, in our conversation, the 'Both/And.' It is both absolutely vital, or we think it is here at Research in Practice, to make sure that, for example, Black colleagues are absolutely being given the space to share their expertise. And it is essential that those Black colleagues, who have a multitude of other areas of wisdom, are not treated as, 'The Black trainer.' The nuance within which you precede to try and do good work in this field.  

We've been having all sorts of interesting conversations about, you know, how can we ensure that the way in which we commission our authors and trainers, is, in and of itself, anti-oppressive and anti-discriminatory. And, in some ways, there are commonalities with how we commission people who are bringing lived experience of, for example, violence and abuse. But in other ways, there's a real difference there because you absolutely don't want to be identify an expert as only an expert in their own victimhood.  

Wayne: Yes.  

Dez: So, these nuances to it, which I think they're the right things to be focusing on-,  

Wayne: They are.  

Dez: Because, having said, 'We've just got to try and do better,' I'm now saying, 'And that's not enough on its own. The way in which you try has also got to be better,' if that makes sense?  

Wayne: Yes, yes, it does, yes. I mean, some of it, I suppose, is just a new way of thinking, isn't it? And that's probably why, you know, there are lots of different rabbit holes to go down, because a lot of what you've described there, and there's obviously infinitely more things for lots of different organisations, lots of different social work or organisational leaders. A lot of it, there's no universal forum where we can say, 'Right, okay? You want to dismantle racism? Here you go, here's an off-the-shelf thing that will enable you to do that, you know, in your organisation.' It doesn't really work like that. What it requires is, you know, allyship, in my view, requires self-evaluation but it also, for teams and groups, it requires a group evaluation. And for organisations, it requires an organisational evaluation and that's going to look different for each of those different groups. And I think it's just about it being honest, not being seen as 100% accurate, but really, it's just fuelled by that positive intention to be anti-racist. And what that might look like, you know, today, might look different tomorrow, or in six months’ time, or in a year's time, but everybody is on that trajectory or that journey, I suppose, towards trying to become a better ally. And not just an ally in terms of race, you know, obviously I'll bang on about race because that's my remit now, but an ally in terms of all the respective ways that people might need to be supported, whether that's to do with issues around sexuality, or gender, or whatever the issues are. From an intersectional point of view, it's just about people realising that, 'Well, actually, I need to do more than just fend for myself and people who look like me, or people who are the same sexuality as me or whatever.  

You know, I need to think outside the box and look at people as human beings.' It sounds really simplistic but I do think there's a, kind of, deviation away from that with some of the narratives and perceptions that exist at the moment.  

Dez: Yes. And actually, what you're making me think there is, again, back to this, 'Both/And' mindset. It is both astonishingly simple and incredible complex, and both of those are true.  

Wayne: Yes.  

Dez: Are you finding that the work that you've been doing, that BASW have been doing around anti-racism in social work, is it landing, are people getting it, bluntly?  

[How anti-racism might inform regulation] 

Wayne: Yes, yes. So, I think that it has been positive, it's definitely been positive. There's been a, kind of, insatiable appetite from individuals, from organisations across the country. I would say that that's tended to be limited to, mainly, social work employers, local authorities, you know, private agencies, a lot of universities, also other avenues into social work that have all expressed an interest and I've presented or we've done other collaborative work. So, that's really, really positive. We've talked about the Twitter stuff, which, you know, I have to get a handle on because it can take over a bit sometimes. But it's a good vehicle, you know, for the anti-racism movement. So, yes, I talked about the limitations or the limited response, you know, that's really positive all of that. But where I have found, you know, that it's been a bit difficult, I suppose, is from a more national perspective in organisations that have a national reach, statutory reach and influence. There's been more of a, kind of, mixed response, I suppose, on that. I mean, on a positive note, I've represented BASW on the workforce, racism and equality standards, the WRES [Workforce Race Equality Standard] and the working group for that. I hope to be involved in the advisory group on that, going forward, and that's really positive, you know, I hope that that can be mandatory and universal across all social work. So, you know, that's something that I'll try and aim for, if possible. But with regards to social work regulation and such, which I've written about extensively and I've spoken about, I'd really like to see anti-racism, anti-discrimination and anti-oppression included explicitly within the standards. And, I guess, key action plans around, you know, ways forward in terms of tackling the disproportionate representation of social workers in fitness to practice, and all the stuff that's really well documented, and that's captured in my articles, I'd like to see some movement on that and I think many other would as well.  

Dez: One of the things that strikes me is that colleagues and organisations who are actively seeking to try and do better, be better and help others be better, are working against a backdrop where, perhaps the national political and policy discourse is even more challenging. How do you keep your cool? How do you keep yourself motivated? Healthy?  

Wayne: Yes, it's an interesting one. I suppose I'm naturally confident, Dez, which I think my wife would testify, and also, I'm very passionate and driven, you know, just, I suppose, generally. But more so now that the anti-racism movement has been reignited within social work. So, what keeps me motivated, I suppose, is I don't really feel like I have to try with this stuff, if I'm honest. I feel like it comes, sort of, naturally, because it's what I fundamentally believe in, so I don't feel I'm being fake in any way, I feel like I'm just being my true self, and I consider myself very fortunate and privileged in that I have an opportunity to be able to do something about what I feel passionately about. So, because I have some of those parts of my personality anyway, that I'm just a bit, you know, a bit of one, I suppose, that things have aligned for me in some ways, that I have a vehicle that I'm able to do something, at least within social work, that will help me to sleep better at night and think, 'Well, I've done my bit, you know, it might be very slow, it might be very incremental but I'm doing what I can.' And, you know, I can rest easy, having done that. In terms of what keeps me motivated, I suppose it's just doing the right thing, fundamentally. I'm one of those people who is just, you know, I probably, in many other aspects of my life, have gone against the crowd or what the consensus is, just because I feel strongly and principally about things that are important to me and how I view the world, compassion and equality, and all of those cliché things.  

Dez: Well, they're only clichés because they get said often, not because they're true. And clichés get a bad rep.  

Wayne: They do, you're right, yes.  

[Self-care when fighting racism] 

Dez: I suppose, I ask about that because, you know, as someone who doesn't directly experience racism, I'm conscious that I find it exhausting and upsetting to deal with the news and to recognise that for friends and colleagues who directly experience racism themselves, it's 1,000 times harder than it is for those of us who don't. And, in talking to friends and colleagues who work in this space, who are active in this space, particularly Black friends and colleagues, more so even than other minoritised people, there's something about when the professional is the personal, is the political, and is also the painful, sometimes. The emotional ask on change agents, sorry to use a, sort of, slightly wafty term there. The emotional ask on friends and colleagues in that space, I think, is huge, and one of things that I haven't seen particularly clearly articulated in descriptions of white allyship, is that. That bit about hold, support and nurture those people who are having the fight, if that makes sense?  

Wayne: Yes, that's really interesting that you say that as well. I mean, just going back a step to what you said about the political dimension with a capital ‘P,’ I didn't really touch on that in my response. Just to say that I am aware of that, of course, I mean, it's inescapable at the moment with so many things that have been happening at that political level. It doesn't demotivate me, it doesn't deter me. It can deflate me sometimes or, you know, I will have my bumps in the road with things, where things get in top of me in whatever way, and I tend to go running, or cycling, or keeping myself active physically to deal with that. I find that helps. But it doesn't deter me or anything because I just see that as competition, if I'm honest, and I'm quite a competitive kind of a guy. And, you know, a lot of the areas where I feel there's resistance, I just see that as competition and it just makes me want to step things up, really, and just think of other, new, innovative ways to try and combat racism.  

Dez: One of the things that I often hear, and you might want to correct me on this, we hear a lot about things like sharing power. In terms of things like community development literature, I'm quite persuaded by the argument that giving power, or sharing power, or certainly giving up the power, is less useful than the notion of unleashing power because the power is there, it's just that we've been hogging it. It's not that I've got it and I'll gift wrap it and give some of it to you, it's that you've got your own and I just need to stop taking up the oxygen, if that makes sense?  

[The role of allyship and what it entails] 

Wayne: Yes, it is. I think I take a, kind of, multifaceted view on privilege, or white privilege, in that there's definitely an element of what you've said, about unleashing power. I think in some scenarios, it is important for allies to unleash their power, but I also appreciate, for those people who, perhaps, are self-conscious about their power, the thought of unleashing it could make, kind of, make them feel condescending, as you say, or feel ambivalent about doing that. But I just think different scenarios require different things from allies. And so, that's why it's important allies are educated in terms of the power that they hold, how that could be used in different situations and what that power actually is. You know, sometimes it's verbal, sometimes it might be, I don't know, social capital, various different things. The way I like the view privilege is the concept of it almost being, sort of, power of privilege, I like to view them as a currency, almost. And this idea of spending privilege, and spending power. So, you know, for allies to think, 'Okay, I can't change the world but in my particular remit or area, this is the kind of power that I have, these are the sort of things that I could do in order to level the playing field, this is in terms of language, the kind of conversations I could have with myself and with others.' And then people start to begin to outlie almost, within their lifestyle, areas where they can begin to make some of those incremental changes. And I think that's how we overcome some of this, personally and professionally. But it's getting people to view it like that, you know, in the first place.  

Dez: Right, yes, the idea of how to spend it and what do you get?  

Wayne: Yes.  

Dez: What do you get for the results...?  

Wayne: Yes, and what do you get back out of it? Because some of it is about the immediacy as well. The immediacy of racism to white allies and the immediacy of allyship to potential allies. Do you see what I mean? And drawing those things together so people think, 'Alright, yes, I thought actually there wasn't any racism, I thought the Sewell report was right but now I'm looking at it through these lenses, I'm realising that oh yes, that's racism and this is racism. And this is what I can do about it.' Do you see what I mean?  

Dez: Yes. Yes, I do. Sorry, I lost my poker face at the idea that anyone would have read the Sewell report and thought it was valid but you're quite right of course, diversity of views and all that.  

Wayne: Yes, these people exist.  

[What we mean by power and how it can be unleashed]

Dez: I'm on a journey, Wayne, I haven't quite... the other thing that occurs to me about power and privilege is recognising where they're baked in. I think, often as individuals, we can feel that we don't have much power, you know, it's very easy for me to focus on the sexism I experience and not to notice the white privilege I also concurrently experience, or the privilege that comes through being able bodied, for example. And it can be quite painful, I think, to recognise that when you are also experiencing discrimination, or oppression, or harm, for another aspect of your identity. So, there's a, kind of, this sounds silly almost but almost like a loss, a slight sense of loss that you might have to-, acknowledging your privilege through one aspect of your identify, you're being asked to somehow ignore or parcel away, and of course, it's not, that's the point of intersectionality, is that you are both and, our identities are more like cut gems. Many, many, many facets and they're fractal.  

Wayne: Exactly. And there's a, kind of, process of giving and taking, I think. So, you know, giving, compassion, empathy, understanding to people who identify differently to you, for whatever reason. But then, at the same time, you being willing and able to receive some understanding around that in terms of how it relates to you as well. And getting people to understand, it's a two-way process. Whereas, at the moment, I think it becomes quite a one-way process around some of these issues, hence why we have discrimination, because people don't have that kind of cooperative take on the world, approach to life. It's more, kind of, 'These immigrants or these Black people,' people are labelled and, as you say, parcelled away when actually, in order for us to be more harmonious, there needs to be an understanding of this interdependence, would be my take on things. And so, like I say, allyship isn't just about racial allyship, you know, it takes many different forms. I bang on about the racial dimension because of my role but actually, it's just about people understanding that concept of allyship more broadly.  

[Anglo-centric perspectives in evidence and the white gaze] 

Dez: One of the conundrums, and I don't know if this plays for you or in BASW, but one of the-, as an evidence-informed practice organisation, we quite like evidence, it's our major, you know, change mechanism by which we try to help people in their practice and their leadership. And, of course, the evidence base itself, particularly I'm thinking here about the traditional research evidence base, has itself some baked in blind spots biases Anglocentric perspectives. I was really struck by how, I think it was Advance HE [Higher Education]'s research a couple of years ago, 0.06% of professors in the UK identifying as Black in less than five institutions, academic institutions heads identify as Black, Asian or so called minority ethnic background. So, there's a, sort of... you talked about the white gaze, arguably, there's a White gaze within the research evidence base, there's then, and I think that's not only the case in terms Black voices and expertise, we know, for example, that working class academics are fighting hard to have better representation, better respect in their work, user-centred and user-led research. Often, you know, strong, passionate advocates, people like Peter Beresford and others would say that there's a hierarchy, it's not respected in the same way. So, the evidence itself it not being made by a truly diverse group of people, and then the way in which evidence is used can often compound that. I was really struck recently, there was a report that came out, I think it might have been for the coalition around race equalities, or certainly they're involved, which looked at how research funding, and grant funding, and things, are much more likely to be awarded to white researchers or able-bodied researchers, male researchers.  

And yet, we use awarding a grant funding as one of the measures by which we decide whether you're a good institution. So, you get this, kind of, perpetuation of privilege and power within the evidence, and yet people like to pretend that evidence is neutral and objective. But, of course, it's not because it exists in a context.  

Wayne: Yes, for sure. And, you know, those in power and control, they determine the evidence. So, thinking of the Sewell report, for example, if you think about the processes, and the personnel involved in, you know, putting the panel together and then the outcome of the report and all the rest of it. Thinking along the lines that you've just described, you know, it doesn't come as a surprise then, that the report presents in the way that it does. So, I do think that one of the benefits of Black Lives Matter, BLM, is that it's really put a spotlight on everything in terms of policy, practice and education, across lots of different professions. But, for me, looking at it in terms of social work, it's just really interesting. Like, how you just described there with education, you know, there's a monopoly, almost, of whiteness that permeates through social work, education, but education more broadly. And I was watching a YouTube clip the other day with Kehinde Andrews who was involved in a debate at Oxford Uni, and I think it was from a few years ago. And it was fascinating, about education, obviously he's a professor of Black studies so he knows his stuff historically, but also contemporarily as well. But he was just talking about the education system as a whole, in this country, and how it basically perpetuates white supremacy. It's a machine that just, you know, continues to redefine white supremacy, in both a covert and an overt way. And I think we can relate that to social work when we look at the number of professors, as you were saying, at the hierarchies of some of these institutions and the content of a lot of the courses.  

And the fight to, as I pointed out in my presentations, you know, just very basic terminology around racism and around discrimination, and so on, isn't included in our regulatory frameworks, is only fleeting mentioned in social work courses, in some courses, certainly. So, yes, I think it's just a really interesting point and it just identifies and highlights we need to do more.  

Dez: Yes, absolutely right. And I would add to that as well, I think I would observe similarly problematic issues around both the evidence being generated and how it gets implemented in relation to socioeconomic status, poverty and inequality on that front too. I quite often find myself reading research or, indeed, you know, tools that have been made based on research, which have real blind spots in them. There's quite a well known neglect assessment tool that I occasionally pick on when I'm doing talks around this which... it's a pretty well research-based tool, it's one of the better ones in circulation, it's very popular and it includes, sort of, indicators of good, non-neglectful parenting, which includes things like, 'The child's hair is clean and brushed daily.' Well, the two kids I love most in the world have huge, glorious 'fros. There's evidence that says things like, 'The family eat around a table,' well, not if you put me in a bedsit. 'There are age appropriate toys available,' well, not if I've just fled to a refuge with nothing but my handbag. It was a real sense of how... not to critique the tool itself but tools based on research which are inherently Anglocentric and, kind of, middle class in their assumption, as some would criticise, they need to be in the hands of really well supervised, thoughtful, values-driven, anti-oppressive practitioners. You need good people with good kit. One or either on their own seems to me to leave space for blind spots and biases.  

Wayne: Completely. And I think just hearing you speak there, what came to mind for me was around the service user involvement and perspective as well, in the development of those tools and curriculums, and so on. That if we've not got that input, first and foremost, then it's limited to just a practitioner or a research perspective, which I think is quite blinkered. But then, also, if there's not a, kind of, intersectional approach in terms of the make-up of those professionals, and the service user involvement, as you say, it leads to these blind spots, you look at the end result, you try and apply it on a home visit as a front-line practitioner, and you're thinking, 'Well, hang on, this is an Asian family. They don't traditionally want to sit round a table. Or they might want to sit on the floor perhaps. They might want to eat in a way that's non-traditional to English people but that hasn't been considered in this assessment tool or in this particular subject that I'm studying.' And I just think those are indicators of where social work really needs to step up. And some education, or higher education institutions that I've been in contact with, are looking at those things, you know, are considering those things. Other, just aren't. And, as I say, from a national point of view, I'm looking to some of those organisations and groups that have national influence, and I'm thinking, 'Well, where are you on this?'  

Dez: Yes, I guess it make me think, when you were talking about decolonising the curriculum, that's where my mind went to about some of the search and research-based tools I've seen that perhaps haven't had that interrogative lens applied to them, and that critical thinking. And I think you're absolutely right around the they need to have multiple voices. At Research in Practice, we talk about evidence-informed practice, which is a bit different to evidence-based practice, in the purest sense. By evidence-informed practice, we mean triangulating robust, relevant, legit research and data, but alongside professional wisdom, sometimes called tacit knowledge. And thirdly, crucially, expertise from those with lived experience. And it's like a plaiting of bread and, I guess, for me that broadens out the notion of evidence-informed practice from, so, purest, what works, agenda, which, you know, it is important and contrary to popular opinion, I do think RCT [Randomised Control Trial]’s have a place. And, you know, I think it is important that we build up that kind of evidence base as well as also understanding what matters, not all of what matters can be understood through a purest what works lens. Some of the questions that I think social work, other professions, national organisations need to answer, are what if and what matters kind of questions, and I don't believe you can answer them without practitioner and child family, adult perspectives. And not everything that we need to answer is in a laboratory, does this intervention work better than that intervention? Conundrum, we're facing. And so, there's something as well about, within the evidence sector, being humble enough to take a horses for courses approach.  

[Why activism is so important to social work] 

Wayne: Yes, yes. I mean, that all sounds very logical and rational to me. You know, I don't consider myself to be an academic or a researcher, I still probably, foolishly, consider myself as a practitioner, even though I've been out of front-line practice for over three and a half years. But that's been my bread and butter, really, for many years. And, you know, I'm probably more of an activist now, really, strictly. But my view of academia and research around anti-racism is that yes, it is important, for sure, but it isn't something that I think we should allow the serious issues, the serious action that's needed to just be kicked into the long grass. And I think there's a danger of that sometimes, there's a, kind of, 'We can't do anything until we've got the evidence, approach, I think, with some organisations. And I think, 'Well, no, actually. It's clear from various other sources what the issues are, you know, credible sources, reputable sources. Let's take some action based on that and undertake the research, and the evidence, that might need to be gathered in the meantime, alongside that.' But it seems to be a one or the other kind of approach. And I do think that, for some, it is just a tactic just to kick these issues into the long grass. Quite often, any progress that's being made isn't visible or transparent to everyone when I feel it should be. You know it's not about pointing the finger, it's really about being reassured that, you know, anti-racism is being taken seriously in whatever capacity. So, you know, going back to what you were saying about academia and research, I think it's important, like I say, I can totally empathise and understand where you're coming from in terms of the logical and rationale that you apply at Research in Practice. But, more broadly than that, in social work, I just think there needs to be less suppression of action or excuses for not taking action, basically.  

And, yes, that's something that I'm really, sort of, wanting to promote best I can, that it's not about doing the right thing all of the time, it's about trying to take the right action, really, as much as you can, a more realistic approach.  

Dez: And I love the word that you used the word activist, I absolutely would identify you as an activist if someone was to ask me. And one of the things that strikes me is I can certainly remember in my career, being advised that it wasn't my job to be an activist because I was now a professional, and I think, particularly in some bigger institutions, you know, local government, perhaps in the NHS, policing, I wonder if professionals are sometimes given the impression that they have to compartmentalise. 'You come to work to be, you know, stoic, and professional and polite, and if you do your activism on the weekends, don't get caught.' Whereas, increasingly, I think actually, in the current climate, I would see an integration of your professional, your person, your political identities as being essential for coherence and congruence. Interested in your views on that?  

Wayne: Yes, again, I totally agree with that and I think that it's difficult for, probably, most people to be able to be authentic, you know, in all of those different hats that they might wear. My situation is probably a little bit unique because of my role at BASW, that it allows me to merge, to some degree, personal and professional values and ethics around anti-racism. Much of this role that I did, you know, unofficially, sort of, prior to February, definitely was a merging of the personal and professional. And I look back on some of the things that I was involved in, some of the articles that I wrote and things, and I think, 'Blimey, I was in a, kind of, angry place or an emotive place at that time,' and I don't apologise for any of it. But it's just interesting to chart my progress, I guess, with some of the things that I've done. But, yes, the role certainly allows me to merge those things. And, I think, for other people, for other social workers, there is definitely a large element of compliance with what their employers expect, what the regulator will expect from them in terms of conduct, etc. But I think there always has to be a place for activism and, you know, I've written an article previously, prior to all this anti-racism stuff, actually, on why social work activism isn't dead, that I'd encourage people to have a look at because I still think it rings true now. And certainly when I came into the profession, although there wasn't a strong activist movement, there were many practitioners that I worked alongside who were seniors at that time, who spoke fondly about, you know, bygone eras, about the bedrock of social work, social justice and all those things.  

And it was all that kind of narrative and camaraderie that made me think, 'Well, yes, this is an area that I do want to qualify in, I do want to become a social worker, you know, I do want to be able to champion social justice.' And then, almost ironically, what's happened is, since then, it feels as though some of the social justice element has slid off the priority list a little bit, for various reasons, not just internal to social work, eternal in society as well. But because of that, it's, kind of, almost eroded the identity of social work and social workers, and I just think we need to get back to our true roots, really.  

Dez: And that's a great note to end on. We will make sure that all the different links, all the fantastic resources that you and your colleagues at BASW have produced, we'll include these in the, what I think are called show notes. That's fancy. So, we'll make sure that people have a chance to access the materials. I just want to thank you for all the work that you do, all the work that BASW does, I know that I learnt a lot from what you're doing and I've learned lots from this conversation. And I think also, back to our point about fragility and vulnerability, what you do very well, Wayne, is create a space in which it feels safe enough to say, 'Oh, God, I'm not getting this right, I'm really scared I'm going to get it wrong.' And I think that that is a really powerful mechanism for change. There is a space for furious, angry, combative resistance. I believe that very, very, very strongly. And I also recognise that it can be equally powerful sometimes, to, in the very artful way that you do, just create space for those of us who have privilege particularly associated to being White, to feel okay to learn. And that's not easy to pull off.  

Wayne: Thanks, that's really kind of you to say, I really appreciate that. And that's the aim, you know, it's not about pointing fingers although some people may feel I'm constantly pointing fingers at them. But, you know, I really want to work collaboratively, that's the thing. It's not about isolating people or, you know, blame culture, which I think there's already too much of within social work. This is really about collaboration and trying to bring people on that anti-racism journey, really.  

Dez: Yes. Well, as I say, I think back to both and. It is both essential that we have some folks on the terraces screaming that the game is rigged, and really, really important to have people on the pitch. And I think you do both of those and everything in between with real sophistication and warmth.  

[Outro] 

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